Theological discussion with Joaquin Fajardo

Proposition: "Christ Pre-existed as God, attested by the Bible":

First Part:
Affirmative Side: 1000 words
Questions from Negative Side: 10 questions.
Negative Side: 1000 words
Questions from Affirmative Question: 10 questions.

Second Part:
Affirmative Side: 1000 words
Questions from Negative Side: 10 questions.
Negative Side: 1000 words
Questions from Affirmative Question: 10 questions.

Third Part:
Affirmative Side: 1000 words
Questions from Negative Side: 10 questions.
Negative Side: 1000 words
Questions from Affirmative Question: 10 questions.

Forth Part:
Affirmative Side: 1000 words
Questions from Negative Side: 10 questions.
Negative Side: 1000 words
Questions from Affirmative Question: 10 questions.
Fifth Part: Closing Remarks of the Affirmative Side 500 words
Closing Remarks of the Negative Side 500 words

Sixth Part:
Series of Question and Answer from both sides.

FIRST AFFIRMATIVE STATEMENT:

The following statement should prove that Jesus Christ pre-existed as God. Before I proceed to my main points in proving that Christ pre-existed, let me clarify first the word “pre-existed”. Pre-existed means that the person Christ has already exist before he was born here on earth and he has the nature and attributes of God; divine, eternal and omniscient. In this case, it means that Christ was born twice: First, he was born eternally from the Father which means he was born outside time. Second, he was born here on earth. To prove this assertion biblically I will make this point by point to make it clearer.

1. Christ was the Word in the beginning. 

The biblical evidence of the pre-existence of Christ can be clearly seen in the first verse in chapter 1 in the book of John: “ ..In the beginning was the Word..”. The statement clearly suggest that the Word is outside time for in the “beginning WAS”. If we continue, “..and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”. At the end part of the verse, John gave us the identity of Word, and that Word was “God”. In the later part of the chapter, John is not telling us that the Word is some kind of a passive and non-existent idea or a plan but a person who has a great role in creation.

“Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life,and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.” – John 1:3-5

Things we can deduced from the verses:

1. All things were made through the WORD, which means he was creator
2. Without the WORD, there would be nothing, which also means he was a creator.
3. In the WORD was life.
4. The WORD is the light of all mankind.
5. Lastly, The WORD is person, John referred the Word as “He”, “Him”
John later revealed to us that the WORD was made flesh or became flesh which means the “Word become Man”. The identity of the Word is Christ Thus, God became Man. 

2. Christ surely asserted that he pre-existed.

“54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.” John 8:54-58.

This is a powerful proof for the pre-existence of Christ. Due to the unbelief of the Jews, they ask how Jesus could saw Abraham he was not fifty years old yet. When the Jews said this, Christ did not correct the Jews but sustained this claim by telling them “Very truly I tell you” and claimed about his pre-existence and divinity: “before Abraham was born, I am”. The gravity of Jesus’ claim can be understood on how the Jews reacted to what he said. 

3. John the Baptist testified that Christ was before him

29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ – John 1:29-30.

The passage might have nothing to do with the pre-existence of Christ unless we know a little detail about the age of John and Jesus. John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus yet John testified that Jesus was before him. This could only mean one thing and that would be John the Baptist knew that Christ pre-existed. 

4. Christ was speaking to the prophets for his coming.

“"I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty.” Malachi 3:1

A voice of one calling: "In the wilderness prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.- Isaiah 40:3

In Malachi 3:1, is in reference to the coming of Christ. It the Lord Almighty says that he will send a messenger to prepare the way before him. The Lord Almighty did not say “..prepare the way before my Son”, no but he says “BEFORE ME”. It is only therefore, that the Lord Almighty who was speaking to prophet Malachi was Christ. 

Even more for the divinity of Christ, Isaiah 40:3 which was prophecy in reference to John to prepare the way for Christ, “ John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, “I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’ Jn 1:23

John the Baptist did not only prepare the way for the Lord, but for God. As Isaiah 40:30 says “..make straight in the desert a highway for our God.”.

5. Christ had glory with the Father before the world began.

“And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.” John 17:5.

This again is one of the powerful proofs of Christ’s existence for he cannot have the glory with the Father if he does not exist. Also, the glorification did not take place after the creation but before the world began. Thus proves the divinity of Christ.
1. Christ was the Word in the beginning. 
The biblical evidence of the pre-existence of Christ can be clearly seen in the first verse in chapter 1 in the book of John: “ ..In the beginning was the Word..”. The statement clearly suggest that the Word is outside time for in the “beginning WAS”. If we continue, “..and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”. At the end part of the verse, John gave us the identity of Word, and that Word was “God”. In the later part of the chapter, John is not telling us that the Word is some kind of a passive and non-existent idea or a plan but a person who has a great role in creation.
“Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life,and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.” – John 1:3-5
Things we can deduced from the verses:
1. All things were made through the WORD, which means he was creator2. Without the WORD, there would be nothing, which also means he was a creator.3. In the WORD was life.4. The WORD is the light of all mankind.5. Lastly, The WORD is person, John referred the Word as “He”, “Him”John later revealed to us that the WORD was made flesh or became flesh which means the “Word become Man”. The identity of the Word is Christ Thus, God became Man. 
2. Christ surely asserted that he pre-existed.
“54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.” John 8:54-58.
This is a powerful proof for the pre-existence of Christ. Due to the unbelief of the Jews, they ask how Jesus could saw Abraham he was not fifty years old yet. When the Jews said this, Christ did not correct the Jews but sustained this claim by telling them “Very truly I tell you” and claimed about his pre-existence and divinity: “before Abraham was born, I am”. The gravity of Jesus’ claim can be understood on how the Jews reacted to what he said. 
3. John the Baptist testified that Christ was before him
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ – John 1:29-30.
The passage might have nothing to do with the pre-existence of Christ unless we know a little detail about the age of John and Jesus. John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus yet John testified that Jesus was before him. This could only mean one thing and that would be John the Baptist knew that Christ pre-existed. 
4. Christ was speaking to the prophets for his coming.
“"I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty.” Malachi 3:1
A voice of one calling: "In the wilderness prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.- Isaiah 40:3
In Malachi 3:1, is in reference to the coming of Christ. It the Lord Almighty says that he will send a messenger to prepare the way before him. The Lord Almighty did not say “..prepare the way before my Son”, no but he says “BEFORE ME”. It is only therefore, that the Lord Almighty who was speaking to prophet Malachi was Christ. 
Even more for the divinity of Christ, Isaiah 40:3 which was prophecy in reference to John to prepare the way for Christ, “ John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, “I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’ Jn 1:23
John the Baptist did not only prepare the way for the Lord, but for God. As Isaiah 40:30 says “..make straight in the desert a highway for our God.”.
5. Christ had glory with the Father before the world began.
“And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.” John 17:5.
This again is one of the powerful proofs of Christ’s existence for he cannot have the glory with the Father if he does not exist. Also, the glorification did not take place after the creation but before the world began. Thus proves the divinity of Christ.


QUESTIONS FROM THE NEGATIVE:

Question #1: In the verse John 1:1

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.". Being honest my friend..
--- May mababasa po ba tayong "Cristo" o "Hesus" o "Anak" sa talatang nabanggit sa taas?

Question #2: in the last statement of John 1:1 "..and the Word was God..."
--- Was the term God used as a Noun or an Adjective?

Question #3: Instead of of the following:
"In the beginning was the (Son), and the (Son) was with God, and the (Son) was God." or "In the beginning was the (Jesus Christ), and (Jesus Christ) was with God, and (Jesus-Christ) was God."
--- Why John used the term "Word" in his writings?

Question #4: As the definition of coexist below:
co·ex·ist (kō′ĭg-zĭst′)
intr.v. co·ex·ist·ed, co·ex·ist·ing, co·ex·ists
1. To exist together, at the same time, or in the same place.
--- Do Son (Jesus Christ) coexist by his father?

Question #5: You posted John 8:54-58 to proved that Christ have pre-existed as God.
--- Do you believed that Abraham saw Jesus Christ as God?

Question #6: Multiple Choice: in the term "Seeing" and "saw":
--- how can he((Jesus) be seen by Abraham?
A. By eyesight (Personal face to face)
B. Through mind (Vision/Revelation)
C. None of the above. (Please provide the answer)

Question #7: in the statement ".. Abraham saw his day.."
--- What is the term HIS DAY referring to?

Question #8: Ginamit mo ang (Mal. 3:1, Isaiah 40:3) para iproved na ang Diyos o Panginoon (Pertaing to God) nga personally ang pinaghanda ng daan ni Juan. Ito bang (Mal. 4:5) na nagsasabi na si Elias na propeta ang ipapadala ng Diyos sa dakilang araw niya.
--- Is it Prophet Elijah who PERSONALLY sent by God before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the lord?

Question #9: You are using John 17:5 to proved also that Christ pre-existed as God. According to the verse (John 17:5.)
--- Ano yung kaluwalhatian(glory) na sinasabi sa talata na IBINIGAY kay Cristo mula pa noong una?
QUESTIONS FROM AFFIRMATIVE:

ANSWERS TO 9 OUT OF 10 QUESTIONS FROM Joaquin Fajardo

Question #1: In the verse John 1:1

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.". Being honest my friend..
--- May mababasa po ba tayong "Cristo" o "Hesus" o "Anak" sa talatang nabanggit sa taas?

MY ANSWER: I never asserted that “Christ” is mentioned in the verse above. What I am saying is that the identity of the Word is the Son which was revealed in verse 14: “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” 

Question #2: in the last statement of John 1:1 "..and the Word was God..."
--- Was the term God used as a Noun or an Adjective?

MY ANSWER: God is a being, not some kind of description to be called as an adjective. John unequivocally expressed that the Word is a divine being by saying “the Word was God”.

Question #3: Instead of of the following:
"In the beginning was the (Son), and the (Son) was with God, and the (Son) was God." or "In the beginning was the (Jesus Christ), and (Jesus Christ) was with God, and (Jesus-Christ) was God."
--- Why John used the term "Word" in his writings?

MY ANSWER: John used word “Logos” Word from a Jew named Philo and viewed the word as the “mind, image, and shadow of God.” He further qualified the Logos as the creative power of God, an agent in God’s creative work, similar to the Word spoken by God in the Book of Genesis. Somehow, he linked Greek philosophy with Hebrew theology. Interestingly, Philo called the Logos “the Man of God.” 

Moreover, both Philo and John maintained, albeit from different perspectives, that the Logos was the creative power of God (John 1:3). But it was John who established the Logos as God himself (John1:1). It is no coincidence that John re-interpreted Philo’s “Man of God” as the “Man-God” Jesus Christ. Though pagan Greek philosophers gave it varied interpretations, thought, plan, etc. Philo “Hebrewized” the pagan “Logos”, but John “Christianized” it, and gave it a definitive IDENTITY in JESUS CHRIST, the Logos MADE FLESH.

Question #4: As the definition of coexist below:
co•ex•ist (kō′ĭg-zĭst′)
intr.v. co•ex•ist•ed, co•ex•ist•ing, co•ex•ists
1. To exist together, at the same time, or in the same place.
--- Do Son (Jesus Christ) coexist by his father?

MY ANSWER: YES, taken from the same passage in John 1:1. “In the beginning was the Word”. The meaning is: that the "Word" (who was later revealed as the Son) had an existence before the world was created. Followed by “the Word was with God” which denotes that the Word exist together with God before the world was created. See John 17:5; "And now, O Father, glorify thou we with thine own self, with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." See also John 1:18; "No man hath seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." See also John 3:13; "The Son of man, which is in heaven." 

Question #5: You posted John 8:54-58 to proved that Christ have pre-existed as God.
--- Do you believed that Abraham saw Jesus Christ as God?
MY ANSWER: The key in understanding what Jesus really meant in that passage is how his listeners reacted and how Christ responded to their reactions.

Christ said: Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
The Jews reacted: “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

Now Jews actually think that Abraham really saw Jesus. What the Jews think could be wrong but we know that they understood Christ correctly by how Jesus answered them

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Here Christ supported the understanding of the Jews to the words of Christ by saying “Very truly I tell you”

Christ did not rebuke them when they were thinking that they Abraham really saw Jesus. Christ would rebuke when people wrong think what Jesus is doing or saying, for example:

Jn 8:48The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritanand demon-possessed?”
49 “I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus,

Question #6: Multiple Choice: in the term "Seeing" and "saw":
--- how can he((Jesus) be seen by Abraham?
A. By eyesight (Personal face to face)
B. Through mind (Vision/Revelation)
C. None of the above. (Please provide the answer)
MY ANSWER: “: Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

Though this is an unrecorded scene, Christ could not more express that Abraham really saw him by eyesight and not a prophetic vision: “..he saw it and was glad.”
”

Question #7: in the statement ".. Abraham saw his day.."
--- What is the term HIS DAY referring to?
MY ANSWER: The word “day,” here, is used to denote the time, the appearance, the advent, and the manner of life of the Messiah. Luke 17:26; “as it was in the days of Noah so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.” –Barnes Notes

Question #8: Ginamit mo ang (Mal. 3:1, Isaiah 40:3) para iproved na ang Diyos o Panginoon (Pertaing to God) nga personally ang pinaghanda ng daan ni Juan. Ito bang (Mal. 4:5) na nagsasabi na si Elias na propeta ang ipapadala ng Diyos sa dakilang araw niya.
--- Is it Prophet Elijah who PERSONALLY sent by God before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the lord?

My ANSWER: No, but it was not the person Elijah who will come before the Lord but John the Baptist Luke 1:17 says John "will go before him [the Lord] in the spirit and power of Elijah.".

Question #9: You are using John 17:5 to proved also that Christ pre-existed as God. According to the verse (John 17:5.)
--- Ano yung kaluwalhatian(glory) na sinasabi sa talata na IBINIGAY kay Cristo mula pa noong una?

MY ANSWER: The glory is the fullness of joy and honor that the Father and Son have shared before the world began. A notion of happiness, or everything which could render the condition blessed.- Barnes’ Notes.

You may now proceed to your negative statement of the proposition.

NEGATIVE:

Again thanks to everyone, especially to Riel Lopez, for giving me this opportunity to share my faith. Bilang negatibo sa paksang nakahain, hindi kailangan ng negatibo na magpatunay, bagkus kailangan ng negatibo na suriin ang lahat ng mga bagay na itinatayo ng apirmatibo upang mas maunawa ng marami kung paano ba dapat ito intindihin at magkasundo ang buong banal na kasulatan.

TANDAAN: Hindi dapat labagin ang nasusulat na:

"..for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me," (Isaiah 46:9) 

Pag masdan na ginamit ang singular "I" bilang singular subject pronoun, at singular object pronoun na "me". Which is pertaining to only one entity na siyang nagsasalita sa talata. Hindi tatlo sa isa which is uniplural form. Kaya mali kagad na sabihin na ang Ama at Anak ay co-exist tulad ng sagot ni Riel. Maraming lalabagin sa logic at talata.

JUAN: 1:1c
--- Sa mga talatang nabanggit partikular na sa (Juan 1:1c) aminado ang aking kadiskusyon na walang mababasang "...The Son was God" o "..Jesus Christ was God" sa kahit anong salin nito, maging sa manuskripto ng griego. Ikalawa bakit ko itinatanong sa ating kaibigan kung anong klaseng salita o gamit ang terminong "God" sa "..The Word was God.."? Ito ba ay noun o ito ba ay adjective? Lets analyze:

In the statement "..The Word was God"
The Word = Noun
God = Adjective

Bakit Adjective ang terminong "God"? because, there is no definite article used "The". The term God(adjective) is used to describe the subject the Word(Noun). Bakit importanteng malaman ito? Sapagkat HINDI pala ito sagot sa "the word was (Who)" kundi sagot sa "the word was (what)". Ang terminong "God" sa (Juan 1:1c) ay isang description at hindi name o noun. Kaya pano ito i-tinaranslate ng ibang scholar? tulad ni Dr. James Moffat iniliwat niya ang (John 1:1c) ng "The Word was Divine" o "Godlike". Bakit "Divine"?, sapagka't walang salitang mula sa Dios na di may kapangyarihan (Lucas 1:37). Natural na kung ano ang Diyos ganun din ang kanyang salita kaya "The Word was God(Adjective: Divine or Godlike)". Sa Juan 1:1c lang ba nagkaron ng pagkakataon na maging adjective ang terminong "God"? Hindi, mababasa rin ito sa Genesis 23:6 na kung saan ang terminong "Elohim" sa hebrew na katumbas sa greek na "Theos" bilang God ay isinalin ng mga translator tulad ng KJV na "mighty".

JUAN 1:3
--- Ang (Juan 1:3) ay hindi ko na masyado babalangkasin sapagkat hindi usapan sa paksa kung si Cristo ba ay manlilikha o hindi. Para magbigay ng insight sa talatang ito, hindi sinasabi ng talata na si Cristo ay manlilikha kundi "...ang lahat ng bagay ay nilikha sa pamamagitan niya" (SND). Ang terminong "pamamagitan" o "dia" sa wikang griego ay nangangahulugan rin na "by reason of", to cut it short hindi manlilikha si Cristo kundi si Cristo ang rason kung bakit nilikha ang lahat ng nga bagay. Sapagkat hindi si Cristo ang manlilikha:

"Iyan pa ba ang igaganti ninyo kay Yahweh, Kayong mga haling at mga walang isip? Di ba siya ang Ama ninyong lumikha sa inyo, At gumawa sa inyong isang bansa?" (Deuteronomio 32:6)

Susi sa pagkakaunawa:
- Ama ninyong lumikha sa inyo, HINDI sinabing "..Ama, Anak at Espiritu Santo ninyong lumikha sa inyo.."

JUAN 8:54-58
--- Ito ay hindi rin nangangahulugan na si Cristo ay may kalagayan ng Diyos o tinutukoy na siya ay Diyos, Lets Analyze: 

(1) "..before Abraham was born, I am" 

" Jesus saith to her, 'I AM [he], who am speaking to thee." (John 4:26,YLT), Ano yung sinasabi ni Jesus na I AM?, basahin natin sa ibang salin. The woman said, "I know that THE MESSIAH will come. He is THE ONE WE CALL CHRIST. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." . "I AM THAT ONE," Jesus told her, "and I AM speaking to you now." (John 4:25-26, CEV)

Ang kini-claim pala ni Jesus na "I am", "I am he" at "..I am that one" ay yung parating na Messiah at Kristo na tumutukoy sa kanya, "hindi pala yung pagkakaron ng pre-existence as God tulad ng sinasabi ni Riel. Hindi rin ito naunawa ng mga hudyo na nag-udyok para batuin siya. Ang mga salitang "..before Abraham was born, I am" ay nangangahulugan lamang na bago pa si Abraham (Juan 8:58) bago pa si Juan Bautista(Juan 1:29-30) ay una nang pinili si Cristo "..He was chosen before the creation of the world," (1 Peter 1:20).

(2) "Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw ...”

Sabi po ni Riel "..Abraham really saw him by eyesight", ito po ay mali sapagkat wala pang taong nabubuhay ang nakakita sa Diyos (Exodo 33:20). So ibig sabihin hindi nga yung pre-existence as God ang nakita ni Abraham. Kundi yung muling pagparito ni Cristo na yan ang araw ni Cristo o araw ng wakas (1 Cor 1:7-8).

MALACHI 3:1 AT ISAIAH 40:3
--- Unang una wala tayong mababasa na si Cristo ang nagsasalita sa mga talatang nasa taas. Ikalawa hindi porket ang nakalagay sa talata na ang "Diyos" ang siyang ipaghahanda ng daan, ang Diyos din ang siyang gaganap nito. Tulad ng sinasabi sa propesiya ni Malakias sa (Mal. 4:5) na ipapadala ng Diyos si Elias, aminado si Riel na hindi si Elias ang katuparan nito kundi si Juan Bautista daw, sapagkat ang espiritu ni Elias ay na kay Juan Bautista (Luke 1:17). Ganun din ang Malakias 3:1 at Isaiah 40:3, hindi mismo ang Diyos ang ipinaghanda ng daan ni Juan Bautista kundi si Hesus, sapagkat tulad ni Juan Bautista na may espiritu at kapangyarihan ni Elias , si Hesus ay may Espiritu at kapangyarihan din ng Diyos Ama:

"nang mabautismuhan si Jesus, pagdaka'y umahon sa tubig: at narito, nangabuksan sa kaniya ang mga langit, at nakita niya ang ESPIRITU NG DIYOS na bumababang tulad sa isang kalapati, at LUMAPAG SA KANYA;" (Mateo 3:16 )

Ang (Juan 17:5) ay puedeng maitanong sa akin ng apirmatibo para aking malinaw sapagkat kulang sa word limit.

Thanks!
Joaquin Fajardo
QUESTIONS FROM AFFIRMATIVE:

hank you for sharing giving your insights regarding the pre-existence of Christ and for your patience for waiting for my questions. 

Question #1: If there is an idea in the Bible that God had any pronouncement FROM THE Father he is the only one God, like God is saying. “I am God, the Father, the only one God”, where can we found this in the Bible?

Question#2: "..for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me," (Isaiah 46:9) 

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:”- Gen 1:26

We both agree that God is alone, but who are these persons he is referring when he said “LET US”, “OUR IMAGE”, “OUR LIKENESS”. These phrases suggest more than one person is involved during the creation. If God is the Father alone, who is this other person specifically involved during the creation?

Question#3: Since you disagree that the identity of the Word is Christ in John1:1, sino ang Verbo kung hindi si Cristo?

Question #4: Kung hindi existado si Cristo sa hindi pa nilikha ang mundo, sino ang tinutukoy na “SIYA” sa sitas na ito?

“.. at alin man sa lahat ng ginawa ay hindi ginawa kung wala SIYA.” Juan 1:3

Question#5 : ”You said that the Hebrew word “Elohim” which translated “Theos” in greek were also used as an adjective. My question is, is there a Dictionary that can give us a definition of the greek word “theos” which can be used as an adjective?

Question#6: Anong katotohanan ang tinutukoy ni Cristo na sinangayonan niya dito??

“Sinabi sa kanila ni Jesus, Katotohanan, katotohanang sinasabi ko sa inyo,..”

Question#7 : Sa Malachi 3:1 at Isaiah 40:3, ang pagkakakilanlan ba ng ipaghanda ay Dios o Ama?

Question#8 : In parallel to Elijah and John,you said it was prophesize that Elijah will come before the almighty God but it was another person named John who fulfilled the prophecy yet Christ confirmed that Elijah “ ..already came, and they did not recognize him” Matt 17:12
Do you agree that the one who is being prepared by John according to Malachi 3:1 and Isaiah 40:3 is God yet another PERSON? 

Question:#9: If Christ did not pre-exist, how come John said that Christ is before him when the fact is Christ is few months younger than John?

“ ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ – John 1:29-30.”

Question# 10: “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.” John 17:5.

How did Christ had the glory with the Father before the world began if he did not exist before the world began?

Thank you in advance for your answers Joaquin Fajardo


ANSWERS FROM NEGATIVE:

QUESTION #1: If there is an idea in the Bible that God had any pronouncement FROM THE Father he is the only one God, like God is saying. “I am God, the Father, the only one God”, where can we found this in the Bible?

Answer:
--- Ang tanong na ito ay panibagong paksa na dapat talakayin bukod dito, sapagkat ng isulat ni Isaiah ang kanyang aklat sa chapter 46:9 na sinasabi ng Diyos na: "..for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me," ay makikita kung ilang "entity" lamang ang nagsasalita dito sa pamamagitan ng pag aaral sa mga terminong ginamit tulad ng "I" and "me" which is denoted to singular pronoun. At kapag singular pronoun ang ginamit tumutukoy lamang ito sa iisang entity na siyang ISANG INDIBIDWAL LAMANG ANG NAGSASALITA. Kaya ang usapin sa Isaiah 46:9 ay hindi sa term na "God" kundi sa mga pronoun na ginamit dito. At kaya kung ang tanong mo ay kung may mababasa bang sinabi ng Ama na "I am God, the Father, the only one God” walang mababasang letra por letra na ganyan kundi esensya meron na yan nga ang Isaiah 46:9 na tumutukoy sa iisang inbidwal na speaker na dapat alamin ng tao kung sino at ito ay titindigan ko na nagpepertina ito sa Ama.

QUESTION#2: "..for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me," (Isaiah 46:9) 

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:”- Gen 1:26

We both agree that God is alone, but who are these persons he is referring when he said “LET US”, “OUR IMAGE”, “OUR LIKENESS”. These phrases suggest more than one person is involved during the creation. If God is the Father alone, who is this other person specifically involved during the creation?

Answer
--- Ang Genesis 1:26 po ay hindi po tumutukoy sa dami ng manlalalang/manlilikha dahil sa mga terminong "us" and "our" kundi ito po ay tumutukoy sa "audience" sa kung sino ba ang kasama ng manlalang jan sa talata na yan. Tandaan natin na ISA LAMANG ang manlalalang ANG DIYOS AMA (Deuteronomio 32:6).

Kung gayon bakit sinabi ng Diyos na "Let us" at "Our image"? sapagkat noon pa man e bago pa ang lahat ng mga bagay ay nalikha na ng Diyos ang kanyang Kerubin at Serafin (Gen. 3:24). At may makikita tayo sa isang senaryo na kapag usaping "us" patungkol sa langit ay tumutukoy ito sa mga Serafin at Kerubin ng Diyos "..Whom shall I send? And who will go for US?” And I said, “Here am I. Send me!" (Isaiah 6:2,6,8). in other statement, ng sabihin ng Diyos na "lalangin natin", katulad lamang ito sa terminong "basahin natin ang nakasulat sa..." madalas ito sabihin ng mga tagapagturo ngunit ang tagapagturo lamang ang nagbabasa sa kung ano ang nakasulat, sapagkat nais niyang magkaron ng partisipasyon ang audience sa kanyang binabasa. At bakit naman "our image", sapagkat kung anong larawan ang Diyos na yan ay ang pagiging banal, ganun din ang larawan ng mga Anghel na kanyang kausap.

QUESTION#3: Since you disagree that the identity of the Word is Christ in John1:1, sino ang Verbo kung hindi si Cristo?

Answer:
--- Tulad nga po ang sagot ko sa taas ang (Juan 1:1c) ay hindi po sagot sa "The Word was (Who)" kundi sagot sa "The Word was (What)" dahil ang terminong God ay adjective at hindi noun, na siyang naging descriptive term para sa terminong "The Word" na siya namang noun. Ang "Verbo" o "Salita" ay walang kalagayan sa panimula, kundi ang "Verbo" o "Salita" ay inuuri pa lamang sa kung anong uri ang Diyos ganun din ang uri ng "Verbo" o "Salita (Basahin ang tindig ko sa taas) na siya namang sumasa Diyos (Juan 1:2)". Sa simpleng sintido kapag nagsalita ang Diyos, hindi nangangahulugan na ang kanyang Salita ay may kalagayan. Kundi ang "Salita" ng Diyos ay inalintulad o inuuri sa kanya. Kaya nga ang depinisyon niyan sa greek dictionary ay "divine utterance" (3056 lógos).

QUESTION #4: Kung hindi existado si Cristo sa hindi pa nilikha ang mundo, sino ang tinutukoy na “SIYA” sa sitas na ito?

“.. at alin man sa lahat ng ginawa ay hindi ginawa kung wala SIYA.” Juan 1:3

Answer:
--- ang terminong "siya" ay HINDI LAMANG nangangahulugan sa isang inbidwal na may existensya sa kalagayan, kundi ginagamit din ito sa mga "inanimate object". Ang termininong "houtos" at "autos" ay mayoridad ng isinasalin bilang "he" and "him" sa wikang english kadalanasan sa v2 at v3 batay sa tinutukoy nito .Pero, ang hindi alam ng marami na ang "houtos" at "autos" ay inililiwat din sa "this" at "it" sa tagalog ay "nito" at "ito" upang tumukoy rin sa inanimate object. Kaya pag masdan natin maige:

“.. at alin man sa lahat ng ginawa ay hindi ginawa kung wala SIYA.” Juan 1:3

Una batay nga sa taas na sagot ko, hindi sa kung (sino) ang tamang tanong sa talata kundi (ano) ang "logos". The Word was (What)?. Kaya i-analisa natin:

Kapag ginamit ang tanong na (Sino): Sino ang tinutukoy na "siya" sa talatang (Juan 1:3) dibat, ang sagot ay yung "Salita/Word/Logos"?!. Nakita niyo na ang mali? Alin ang mali? Ang mali dito sa tanong na ito ay hindi puede gawing tanong ang "sino" sapagkat wala namang kalagayan ang terminong "Salita o Logos" sapagkat ang depinisyon nito e "divine utterance"(#3056) na lumalabas sa bibig ng Diyos. Basahin sa greek ang (Juan 6:60) na kung saan ginamit ang "Logos/Salita", "Houtos" at "autou" na siyang tumutukoy sa inanimate object at hindi sa existensya na mayroong kalagayan. Kaya yung "siya" na tinutukoy sa talatang (Juan 1:3) ay hindi tumutukoy sa may kalagayang inbidwal kundi tumutukoy sa kung "ano" ang salita.

“.. at alin man sa lahat ng ginawa ay hindi ginawa kung wala ITO (Ito o siya = autos ).” (Juan 1:3), kaya bakit tamang isipin na yung "siya" ay katumbas ng "ito"? sapagkat ang pinatutungkulan pala ng terminong "Word o Salita" ay patungkol sa "ano" at hindi patungkol sa kung "sino".
QUESTION#5 : ”You said that the Hebrew word “Elohim” which translated “Theos” in greek were also used as an adjective. My question is, is there a Dictionary that can give us a definition of the greek word “theos” which can be used as an adjective?

--- Answer:
Meron read: (Liddell Scott Lexicon: See image below). Kapag po ang "God" ay hinanap bilang adjective sa mga diksyonaryo ang termino po nito ay nababago rin bilang "Divine", bakit po sapagkat batay sa pag aaral, idinedeklarang adjective ang isang statement dipende sa grammatical construction of the phrase (An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, by CFD Moule). Kapag daw ang artikulong "Theos" ay walang "Ho" at may kasamasang noun, ang "Theos" ay nagpepertina din as adjective.

QUESTION#6: Anong katotohanan ang tinutukoy ni Cristo na sinangayonan niya dito??

“Sinabi sa kanila ni Jesus, Katotohanan, katotohanang sinasabi ko sa inyo,..”

--- Answer:
Ang sinasabi po ni Hesus jan na "katotohanan, katotohanang.." ay ang mga salita ng Diyos:

"Pakabanalin mo sila sa pamamagitan ng iyong katotohanan. Ang iyong salita ay katotohanan." (Juan 17:17, SND)

QUESTION#7 : Sa Malachi 3:1 at Isaiah 40:3, ang pagkakakilanlan ba ng ipaghanda ay Dios o Ama?

--- Answer:
Tama, sapagkat kung paano pinaghanda ni Juan ng daan si Hesus na sinugo ng Ama, ang pinaghanda niya ng daan ay ang Diyos Ama na nagsugo kay Hesus. Sapagkat kung sino man ang tumatanggap sa kanyang sinugo(Hesus), ay tinatanggap ang Ama na siyang nagsugo:

"Katotohanan, katotohanang sinasabi ko sa inyo: Ang tumatanggap sa sinumang susuguin ko ay tumatanggap sa akin. Ang tumatanggap sa akin ay tumatanggap sa kaniya na nagsugo sa akin." (Juan 13:20)

QUESTION#8 : In parallel to Elijah and John,you said it was prophesize that Elijah will come before the almighty God but it was another person named John who fulfilled the prophecy yet Christ confirmed that Elijah “ ..already came, and they did not recognize him” 

Matt 17:12
Do you agree that the one who is being prepared by John according to Malachi 3:1 and Isaiah 40:3 is God yet another PERSON? 

--- Answer:
Syempre hindi, ipinaliwanag ko na sa taas e. Tignan mo sayo ah, hindi inamin ni Juan na yung Elias na binabanggit ay siya:

At sa kaniya'y kanilang itinanong, Kung gayo'y ano nga? Ikaw baga'y si Elias? At sinabi niya, Hindi ako. Ikaw baga ang propeta? At siya'y sumagot, Hindi. (Juan 1:21)

E bakit kamo? sapagkat hindi naman talaga siya yung MISMO na si Elias ang tinutukoy, kundi yung espiritu at kapangyarihan ni Elias ay nasa kanya lamang (Luke 1:17). Ganyan din yung kay Hesus na tinalakay ko na po sa taas.

QUESTION:#9: If Christ did not pre-exist, how come John said that Christ is before him when the fact is Christ is few months younger than John?

“ ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ – John 1:29-30.”

--- Answer:
Sinagot ko na po ito sa taas ng sabihin ni Juan "..he was before me." ay hindi nangangahulugan as pre-existence God. Kundi nangangahulugan na naunang pinili si Cristo sa lahat ng bagay (1 Peter 1:20). Natural lang pala na sabihin ni Juan at Abraham na "..he was before me." sapagkat si Cristo pala ang kauna unahan sa lahat ng mga nilalang na pinili, kaya rin pala ".. the firstborn over all creation." (Col. 1:15). So dito palang lumalabas na mali nanaman si Riel pano naging co-exist ang Ama at Anak kung creation lang pala si Cristo. Yan ang sinasabi ko mga trinitarian na yan.

QUESTION# 10: “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.” John 17:5.

How did Christ had the glory with the Father before the world began if he did not exist before the world began?

--- Answer:
Sa katotohanan totoo namang nakalaan na kay Hesus ang glory na tinutukoy jan bago pa lalangin ang lahat ng mga bagay. Pero tinamo niya ba ito by his existence as God? Mali. Sapagkat ano ba yung "Glory o kaluwalhatin" na ibinigay kay Cristo, na buhat ng pasimula ay maluwalhati na? Read (Juan 17:2)

John 17:2
"Kung paanong BINIGYAN mo siya ng KAPAMAHALAAN sa lahat ng tao..."

Kapamahalaan pala yun. Ang titulo ng pamumuno. Yun yung Pangalang CRISTO na ibig sabihin ay THE ANOINTED ONE. Nandun na yung TITULO na hinihintay ang pagkapanganak ng PAGLALAPATAN na si JESUS. Kaya pala, "kaluwalhatiang aking tinamo sa iyo bago ang sanglibutan ay naging gayon.". Hindi masamang sabihin ni Hesus na kahit wala pa siyang existencia ay natamo niya na ang kaluwalhatian na yun sapagkat noon palang pala e nakaplano ito ukol sa kanya, yan yung "name" o "pangalan" yan yung maluwalhati na ng una. 

"He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and HIS NAME IS THE WORD OF GOD." - (Rev. 19:13)

Yan yung pangalang "Cristo" na namana niya sa Diyos (Heb. 1:4), yung kapamahalaan at titulo pala ang may pre-existence hindi yung kalagayan. Kaya tama lang naman din na sabihin ni Hesus na TINAMO nya na yung Kaluwalhatian na yun dahil IPINANGANAK na sya nung panahong SABIHIN nya yang nasa (Juan 17:5). 

E baka sabihin ni Riel na hindi yung "pangalan" ang maluwalhati kundi yung kanyang kalagayan bilang Diyos, pakibasa ang (Isaiah 43:7)

Pre-existence of Christ in the Bible (Part 1)

The following statement should prove that Jesus Christ pre-existed as God. Before I proceed to my main points in proving that Christ pre-existed, let me clarify first the word “pre-existed”. Pre-existed means that the person Christ has already exist before he was born here on earth and he has the nature and attributes of God; divine, eternal and omniscient.  In this case, it means that Christ was born twice: First, he was born eternally from the Father which means he was born outside time. Second, he was born here on earth. To prove this assertion biblically I will make this point by point to make it clearer.

1. Christ was the Word in the beginning. 

The biblical evidence of the pre-existence of Christ can be clearly seen in the first verse in chapter 1 in the book of John: “ ..In the beginning was the Word..”. The statement clearly suggest that the Word is outside time for in the “beginning WAS”. If we continue, “..and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”. At the end part of the verse, John gave us the identity of Word, and that Word was “God”. In the later part of the chapter, John is not telling us that the Word is some kind of a passive and non-existent idea or a plan but a person who has a great role in creation.

“Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life,and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.” – John 1:3-5

Things we can deduced from the verses:

1. All things were made through the WORD, which means he was creator

2. Without the WORD, there would be nothing, which also means he was a creator.

3. In the WORD was life.

4. The WORD is the light of all mankind.

5. Lastly, The WORD is person, John referred the Word as “He”, “Him”

John later revealed to us that the WORD was made flesh or became flesh which means the “Word become Man”. The identity of the Word is Christ Thus, God became Man. 

2. Christ surely asserted that he pre-existed.

“54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.” John 8:54-58.

This is a powerful proof for the pre-existence of Christ. Due to the unbelief of the Jews, they ask how Jesus could saw Abraham he was not fifty years old yet. When the Jews said this, Christ did not correct the Jews but sustained this claim by telling them “Very truly I tell you” and claimed about his pre-existence and divinity: “before Abraham was born, I am”. The gravity of Jesus’ claim can be understood on how the Jews reacted to what he said.  

3. John the Baptist testified that Christ was before him

29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ – John 1:29-30.

The passage might have nothing to do with the pre-existence of Christ unless we know a little detail about the age of John and Jesus. John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus yet John testified that Jesus was before him. This could only mean one thing and that would be John the Baptist knew that Christ pre-existed. 

4. Christ was speaking to the prophets for his coming.

“"I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty.” Malachi 3:1

A voice of one calling: "In the wilderness prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.-  Isaiah 40:3

In Malachi 3:1, is in reference to the coming of Christ. It the Lord Almighty says that he will send a messenger to prepare the way before him. The Lord Almighty did not say “..prepare the way before my Son”, no but he says “BEFORE ME”. It is only therefore, that the Lord Almighty who was speaking to prophet Malachi was Christ. 

Even more for the divinity of Christ, Isaiah 40:3 which was prophecy in reference to John to prepare the way for Christ, “ John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, “I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’ Jn 1:23

John the Baptist did not only prepare the way for the Lord, but for God. As Isaiah 40:30 says “..make straight in the desert a highway for our God.”.

5. Christ had glory with the Father before the world began.

“And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.” John 17:5.

This again is one of the powerful proofs of Christ’s existence for he cannot have the glory with the Father if he does not exist. Also, the glorification did not take place after the creation but before the world began. Thus proves the divinity of Christ.

Initial response to INC minister Jose Ventilacion's ATTACK against the Catholic Church by Winnie Ibe

Jose said:

IS IT TRUE THAT THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH WAS ESTABLISHED BY CHRIST?

An empty claim was made by the Roman Catholic Church when they advertised lately on CNN, in conjunction with the Pope’s visit here in the United States, that it was Jesus Christ himself who established their church. Devoid of biblical evidences to prove this contention, the Catholic Church had to use biblical citations which when examined thoroughly, are going beyond what is written, reading things that are not there in the text. Tradition, instead of the Bible, is their source to highlight their claim.An example of such claim is the concept that Peter was made Pope by Jesus Christ when he (Peter) was told that “upon this rock I will build my church” (Matthew 16:18). After even reading that verse a thousand times, still you could not find anything in this verse that would tell you Peter is being made a Pope.In another instance, Jesus told Peter three times to feed his sheep (John 21:15-17). Catholic apologists would go beyond what is written by claiming that Jesus Christ is directly installing Apostle Peter as the Pope! Again, you may read the verses a million times but nothing there in these verses that would make us say that Peter was the first Pope!

My RESPONSE:

Jose Ventilacion first argument is DENIAL. The title of St. Peter being the POPE or FATHER is biblical. He is the TYPE of Eliakim who was the STEWARD of King David. Jesus Christ is the King and the type of Christ.

Jesus is KING:

Luke 1:32-33 KJVS
[32] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: [33] And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Here is the CLEAR TYPOLOGY:
Let us read:

Isaiah 22:21-22 KJVS
[21] And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will COMMIT thy GOVERNMENT into HIS HAND: and he shall be A FATHER to the INHABITANTS of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. [22] And THE KEY of the HOUSE of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall OPEN, and NONE SHALL SHUT ; and he shall shut, and NONE SHALL OPEN."

Here is Jesus conferring the same principle of giving AUTHORITY to St. Peter.

Jesus said:
Matthew 16:17-19 KJVS
[17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar–jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. [18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build MY CHURCH; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give unto thee the KEYS of the KINGDOM of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt BIND on earth shall be BOUND in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt LOOSE on earth shall be LOOSES in heaven."

Jesus made Simon the steward of God's kingdom/church. He received blessings, NAMED PETER/ROCK and RECEIVED KEYS. Jesus knows very well the scripture (Isaiah 22:21-22) and the apostles understood it very well. In Isaiah 22:21 it tells us that ELIAKIM was entrusted to govern David's kingdom. The same manner Jesus COMMITTED HIS entire flock to TEND/ feed and to be look after by St. Peter.

Jesus said these to St. Peter before he ascended to heaven.

Let us read:

John 21:16-17 KJVS
[16] He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. [17] He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep."

The difference between Eliakim to St. Peter of course is the New Testament Kingdom is more glorious as Christ is the King of kings. His Kingdom is universal or CATHOLIC. St. Peter then is NOT ONLY "father" or Pope of the inhabitants of Judah and JERUSALEM but the "father" of all inhabitants of Christ's Church.

JOSE VENTILACION SAID:

There is no question when it comes to the Church built by Christ since the Bible tells us that Christ really established a Church. Was it called the Catholic Church when it was built? No. There is nothing in the Bible that suggests it was called the Catholic Church. In fact, even Catholic authorities themselves admit that it was called the Church of Christ. Let me quote what a Jesuit priest wrote in his book:5. Did Jesus Christ establish a Church?Yes, from all history, both secular and profane, as well as from the Bible considered as a human document, we learn that Jesus Christ established a Church, which from the earliest times has been called after Him the Christian Church or the Church of Christ (Cassily, Francis B., S.J., Religion: Doctrine and Practice for use in Catholic High Schools. 12th and Revised edition, Chicago: Loyola University Press, 1934, p. 442-443.).Francis Cassily points out that this name is from the Bible. Is he correct? Does the Bible really mention of the term Church of Christ? Apostle Paul said:Take heed therefore to yourselves and to all the flock, over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to feed the church of Christ which he has purchased with His blood (Acts 20:28 LAMSA Translation).Take note that Apostle Paul mentioned the term “Church of Christ” in this verse. Also the verse says that the Church is the “flock” to be fed with the spiritual food which is the word of God (Matthew 4:4). The same Church was purchased or redeemed by the precious blood of Christ.

MY RESPONSE:

Jose VENTILACION loves to cite Catholic authors, yet he uses them OUT OF CONTEXT. Nowhere in the Bible which says that the church founded by Christ was NAMED "Church of Christ" from any GREEK Bible. The Lamsa translation did not even existed prior to 1914 and more importantly his translation of Acts 20:28 "Church of Christ" is from HIS OPINION.

The Jesuit priest is stating FACTS in saying that the church founded by Christ was "HISTORICALLY" called "church of Christ", we can agree with that as IT WAS NOT BIBLICALLY. Note that if the priest is stating FACTS that the church founded by Christ was CALLED (not named) "church of Christ" then we NEED to find which church FROM HISTORY which is called " church of Christ. Which CHURCH IS HISTORICAL? That is the CATHOLIC CHURCH. Writings of the church fathers like St. Augustine attest that the Catholic Church is the one they refer to as the "church of Christ". The "Church of Christ" founded by Felix Manalo and NAMED BY HIM is the COUNTERFEIT one. It exist NOT in HISTORY until 1913, hence it CANNOT BE that "historical" church of Christ mentioned in history nor the one mentioned by the Jesuit priest.

Jose VENTILACION said:

WHEN DID THE CHURCH START?The Church started during Christ’s ministry here on earth. Contrary to what some Catholic and Protestant theologians claim that the Church started only during the day of Pentecost, there was already a “flock” during the time of Christ. He says to them: “fear not, little flock” (Luke 12:32). These are the people who were baptized into the Church as reported by John in his Gospel:Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard, “Jesus is making and baptizing more disciples than John” —although it was not Jesus himself but his disciples who baptized (John 4:1-2 NRSV).Even before the day of Pentecost, around one hundred twenty of them were gathered and they devote themselves to prayer (Acts 1:13-15). This is a proof that there were already disciples or members of the Church even before that day. Luke reported that about three thousand souls were added to the Church during the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1, 41-42, 47). He likewise reported that the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem (Acts 6:7). The Church encountered a great persecution (Acts 8:1) so they were scattered (vv. 4-5). However, those who were scattered traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch spread the gospel so a great number who believed turned to the Lord (Acts 11:19-21). In Antioch, the disciples were first called Christians (v. 26).Through the ministry of Apostle Paul and his companions, churches or congregations were established in the Gentile world (Romans 16:4, 16). However, there is no report of Apostle Peter being in Rome to give credence to the tradition concocted by Catholic apologists that he went there in Rome and established the Church. It was Apostle Paul who went to Rome since he is an apostle to the Gentiles while Apostle Peter was the apostle to the Jews (Galatians 2:8-9).

My RESPONSE:

Jose is inaccurate as he equated the word "flock" to church in its fullest sense. Christ himself declared in MATTHEW 16:17-18 to HIS DISCIPLES THAT "he will build his church" implying that while he had "flock" of disciples the church was NOT BORN yet. Moreover, he told the JEWS that the "kingdom" will be taken away from them and be given to the nation that will bear fruits.

Matthew 21:43 KJVS
[43] Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

That spiritual nation IS THE CHURCH which was inaugurated ON THE PENTACOST which prophesied to be global/catholic as its mission covers all nations and it's TRUE to its mission UNTIL THE END OF TIME.

Jose Ventilacion argues for "apostasy", he said:

DID THE CHURCH ESTABLISHED BY CHRIST CONTINUE TO EXIST AS AN ORGANIZATION THAT UPHOLDS THE TEACHINGS OF GOD?When Jesus Christ was still here on earth, He warned His disciples that they should be careful not be deceived by the false prophets (Matthew 24:11). Apostle Paul mentioned of those who will not spare the flock after his death (Acts 20:29). He likewise warned the bishops that there will be those who shall arise and speak perverse things to draw away the disciples after them (vv. 17, 30 ASV).What are these perverse things that the false prophets shall speak in order to draw away the disciples after them? These are the doctrines of the devils mentioned by Apostle Paul in his first letter to Timothy wherein he says:Now the Spirit manifestly saith, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils, Speaking lies in hypocrisy, and having their conscience seared, Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by the faithful, and by them that have known the truth (1st Timothy 4:1-3, Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition).Do we find these two (2) doctrines of the devil in the world today? If we do, then the prediction concerning the falling away or the apostasy of the first century Church of Christ indeed came to pass or fulfilled. In my previous public debates with the representatives from the Roman Catholic Church, I asked them a tough question about the doctrines of the devils that Apostle Paul mentioned in 1st Timothy 4:3: “do you have any of these two doctrines?” Although Catholic defenders tried to wiggle out from answering the question, it is quite obvious that these two demonic teachings are found in the Roman Catholic Church. Written below are their acceptance that they are indeed promoting these two doctrines:“Although celibacy is not expressly enforced by our Savior, it is, however, commended so strongly by Himself and His apostles, both by word and example, that the Church felt it her duty to lay it down as a law. The discipline of the Church has been exerted from the beginning in prohibiting Priests to marry after their ordination.” (Gibbons, James Cardinal. The Faith of our Fathers. New York: P.J. Kennedy and Sons, 1917, p. 328)“What does the second commandment of the Church order us to do?It orders us to fast and abstain from flesh meat on certain days of the year.” (A Seminary Professor. Manual of Christian Doctrine: Comprising Dogma, Moral, and Worship. New York: Lassale Bureau, 1949, p. 317)The Roman Catholic Church prohibits its priests and nuns to marry. There is also a command to her members to abstain from flesh meat in certain days of the year. So, even if they would deny that they are not in custody of the doctrines of the devils, the truth remains that they are upholding these two doctrines."

MY RESPONSE:

I thought Jose will be presenting something of substance, yet he is giving us recycled ATTACKS based on his polluted mind. Marriage is seen in the Catholic Church as sacred and part of God's plan. Food in any forms meat and vegetables are also gifts from God. When we fast or abstain from them, we do it for God's glory. The DISCIPLINE OF CELIBACY and NOT EATING MEAT on certain days are NOT DOCTRINES, rather are discipline of the Church. Christ being celibate himself teaches about BEING CELIBATE for the KINGDOM OF GOD.

Jesus said:

Matthew 19:10-12 GNT
[10] His disciples said to him, “If this is how it is between a man and his wife, it is BETTER NOT TO MARRY.” [11] Jesus answered, "This teaching DOES NOT APPLY to everyone, but ONLY to those to whom God has given it. [12] For there are DIFFERENT REASONS why men cannot marry: some, because they were born that way; others, because men made them that way; and others DO NOT MARRY FOR THE SAKE of the KINGDOM of HEAVEN. Let him who CAN ACCEPT this teaching DO SO."

Apparently, IN THE KINGDOM OF MANALO almost all or if not all INC ministers are married, HENCE NO ONE OF THEM TRULY accept Christ's teaching on this matter. They serve for their own bellies.

St. Paul warned Timothy of existing cult in their time who taught that MEAT/flesh and marriage are evil hence must be avoided. They were
Called "Gnostics". These people claimed that they RECEIVED HIGHER "knowledge" or gnosis.

How do we know that it's them which St. Paul referred to?

1 Timothy 6:20 GNT
[20] Timothy, keep safe what has been entrusted to your care. Avoid the profane talk and foolish arguments of what some people wrongly call "Knowledge

Iglesia ni Cristo | A Story of Conversion

One day, I met my classmate who is a member of Iglesia ni Cristo and sometimes we talked about our religion. He invited me to attend the Iglesia ni Cristo ”Pamamahayag ng Salita ng Diyos” but I refused. Days have passed, he invited me for a second time, but since he knows that I have a vacant time, I finally accepted his invitation. During the event, I was amazed that the minister use not his ownwords but the words of God in the Bible. Inside the INC Chapel,people there are so disciplined males and females are separated. After that, I was interested to listen more about INC from te minister so my classmate introduced me to the minister in their local and the minister asked for my available schedule for the doctrine lessons. And finally, I am now baptized as a member of Iglesia ni Kristo after the painstaking explanation of the ministers about the words of God in the Bible and the truth about the Catholic Church and it’s unbiblical doctrines. I am inviting everyone who are not yet a member of INC to visit your nearest local to learn the truth. These are some few things I learned about INC and why INC is the true Church:

1. INC ministers use not their own words, but the words of God in the Bible.
2. INC is the most disciplined church where males and females are separated during worship services.
3. There are a lot of graven images inside the Catholic Church. The Bible prohibited the making of images and idols yet Catholics has a lot of it inside the church and in their houses.
4. INC do not kneel on images. In the Bible, the equivalent of kneeling is worshiping.

5. Catholics worship the saints and Mary .
6. INC teaches that the Father alone is the true God and the Trinity is not in the Bible.
7. INC teaches that Jesus is a man as what the Bible teaches but Catholics are making Jesus as God.
8. INC teaches that Jesus alone is the sole mediator as what the Bible says. But the Catholic Church is making their saints and Mary as mediators.
9. The church which Christ built was apostatized and the faithful Christians were killed by the false prophets after the last Apostle died.
10. The image of Christ we see today is not the real image of Christ. It is only taken from the painting of Leonardo Da Vinci whose model was the same model used to paint the image of Judas.
11.”Christ is God” doctrine was only invented in the Council of Nicea.
12. . Catholic Church has the two doctrines of the devil, forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from meat
13. Christ commanded not to call anyone father but the priest are called fathers.
14. The Bible condemns praying in repetition, but the Catholics still prays in repetition (Rosary).
15. The Catholic Church was founded by Ignatius of Antioch in 107 A.D and not founded by Christ.

These are only few reasons why I left the Catholic Church and joined the Iglesia ni Cristo. So I want to invite everyone to visit and listen to the doctrines of INC that are found in the Bible.

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The story above is the typical story about people who left the Catholic Church and joined the Iglesia ni Cristo. Those reasons of conversion above are the reality for those people who left the Catholic Church but of course, their conversion was the product of their ignorance.

I am addressing this to the members of Iglesia ni Manalo member who keep convincing me to join INC so that they may understand that I am aware of the things if I will listen to the INC doctrines, attend worship services (only if I am ignorant about the Catholic Church). And now I will now refute my so-called “Reasons of Conversion” so that everyone must understand that IGLESIA NI CRISTO IS NOT THE TRUE CHURCH:

1. INC ministers use not their own words but the words of the Bible?

This is also a common claim for those who become a member of INC. But the truth is, it is only for the sake of attraction. INC ministers are only preaching the interpretation of Felix Manalo of the Bible because they believe that only Manalo can interpret the Bible. And do not be deceived, INC teachingssuch as “Last Messenger of God in these Last Days” is not found in the Bible. The reason why an INC member says that the INC teachings are written in the Bible is because INC ministers are carrying a Bible all the time. No one can really preach the Bible using “Bible Alone”, every preacher must have always an interpretation whether it’s from him or from the others.

2. INC is the most disciplined church?

The discipline inside INC which is the separation of male and female during worship services is only a form of attraction. This attraction is known in the Bible as “Sheep’s Clothing” and Jesus warned about it (Matt 7:15).Discipline is one of the qualities of the true members of the Church and no wonder why INC is boasting the standards of discipline

3. Images were prohibited in the Bible?

It may look like that God prohibited the making of images in Exo. 25:3-4 but no. Even INC made a statue of Manalo without any command from God or from the Bible. With that alone, INC minister are contradicting themselves. The truth is, God allowed the making of images for religious purposes (Ex. 25:18;Ex 37:7-9; 2 Chr 10:13; 1 Kings 7:29; Kings 6:23; Ezek 4:17-18). That is why; Catholics have images inside the church.

4. Kneeling means worshiping?

Two things are needed to know here:

a. Religious images of the Catholic Church are not idols. Idols means false gods and the INC ministers are aware that Catholic Church teaches only one God, the Holy Trinity and calling the images of the Catholic Church as idols is already an intellectual dishonesty, which means INC ministers are aware that they are lying.

b. Kneeling does not always mean worshiping; kneeling is also a sign to show honor, respect and sincerity. In fact, during ordination, ministers are kneeling in front of Manalo yet they deny they are not worshipping Manalo. With that, we can conclude that INC ministers are contradicting themselves from what they say with what they do.

5. Catholics worship Mary and the saints?

This is a lie from the INC ministers. Catholics worship God alone, saints and Mary are only venerated. Veneration means honor and respect. INC is trying to insist that Catholics worship saints and Mary to make it look like Catholics are going against the Bible and to discourage Catholic members who are not so familiar with the teachings of the Catholic Church about Mary and saints.

6. Father alone is thet rue God and the Trinity is against the Bible?

The doctrine of the Holy Trinity states that there are three persons in one God. Each person is God, but there is only one God not three Gods. This doctrine is found in the Bible. In John 14:26, Jesus is referring to the entire Holy Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. And the distinction he makes between them is quite definite. The Father sends. The Son comes to Earth. The Spirit teaches and inspire. The entire theology of the Trinity is present in this single verse.

7. Jesus is a man and not God?

The Catholic Church believes also that Jesus is a man. However, INC teaching Jesus is not God is a heresy back in the early church called “Arianism”. In the Bible we can see a lot of verses telling that Jesus is also God.

Acts 20:28- Jesus is the one whose blood was shed.
Phil. 2:6-7 – He was in the form of God.
Jn 1:1-3- Jesus is the Word, who was God.
And many other verses: Rev 3:14; Jn 8:58; Acts 7:59; 1 Cor 1:23; 2 Pet 1:1; Jn 10:30-33; Jn 5:18; Lk 10:18; Mt. 11:27; Jn 14:6-10; Jn 17:3; Rev 22:13; Dt. 10:17

8. In the Catholic Church, saints and Mary are also mediator and not Jesus alone?

In 1 Tim 2:5, states that there is only one mediator Jesus Christ. Catholic Church believes that the saints and Mary and even us can be also mediators that is because we are the members of the body of Christ. And if we are the members of the body of Christ which is his church, then we can share the sole mediatorship of Christ. Mediator means “to go between”, when a friend ask you to pray for him, you become a mediator between God and your friend. Anyone who says that that Mary and the saints cannot be mediator and he accept prayer request, he is contradicting himself.

9. The church was apostatized after the last Apostle died?

The truth is, there was already an Apostasy during the time of Christ (see Jn 6:66). The teaching of Apostasy in INC is not originally from INC but from Mormonism. And it is also a contrary to the promise of Christ to his church for he promised that “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”. So believing that Apostasy really happened is an unfaithfulness of Christ for not believing his promises.

10. Christ’s image is also the image of Judas?

Da Vinci’s version of Christ was created on the 16th century, and no body really cares who is the model of his painting. But what Inc ministers did not tell is, there were already pictures of Christ before Da Vinci painted the Last Supper. The earliest painting of Christ was painted on 6th century and Da Vinci was not yet born to use the same model for Christ and for Judas.

11. “Christ is God” Doctrine was only invented in the Council of Nicea?

When controversy arises in the church, it should be settled in a council just like what the Apostles did in the whole chapter of Acts 15. What the bishops in the Catholic Church did was only following what the Apostles did when there are controversies. The controversy during the Council of Jerusalem in 50 A.D was about circumcision and the issue was settled. The controversy during 325 A.D in the council of Nicea was about the divinity of Christ, and the issue was settled. INC do not have a council, INC only follow the interpretation of Manalo.

12. The Catholic Church has the two doctrines of the demon (forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from meat)?

a. The Catholic Church does not forbid marriage because it is a sacrament of Matrimony. Celibacy for the priest is not a doctrine but a discipline for the priest who follows Latin-Rite. Celibacy is a teaching of Christ, Matt. 19:12, “renounce marriage for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven”

b. Abstaining meat during lent is a form of fasting. It is only a small part of following Jesus when he fasted for forty days and forty nights. Do INC fast like what Jesus did? No? They won’t even at least ignore their appetites.

13. Call no man Father?

If simply using the word “Father” to human being were wrong, we would not find the word used that way throughout the scriptures. But of course we do again and again.

1 Cor 4:14-15 “I became your Father” Paul himself refers to himself with this word. An inspire author of the scriptures could not have done so if the word were to offense God.

14. Catholic Church was founded by St. Ignatius?

St. Ignatius was a disciple of John the Apostle. He is the Bishop of Antioch the place where the term “Christian” was first used. He was the one who first mentioned the term “Catholic Church” but he is not the founder. INC ministers did not tell INC members about this.

15. Catholics pray in repetition (Rosary)?

Rosary is a Scripture- based, and in praying it, we are not emulating pagan but the heavenly host:

Rev. 4:8- “Day and night they do not stop exclaiming: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was and who is and who is to come”” St. John’s vision of heaven revealed that the angels and saints pray in repetitively. So obviously Jesus was objecting not to repetition but to the insincerity and emptiness of pagan words.

These are only few things to learn for those who left the Catholic Church and joined the INC. A lot of them did not know so much about the Catholic Church and the Bible and because of that, INC successfully inserted some wrong information about the Catholic Church in the minds of the INC members. As a result, INC members today hate what they wrongly believe what the Catholic teaches.

Catholic Doctrines in Scriptures